Who said...?
"When someone is baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they are ushered into an objective, visible, covenant membership. Regardless of the state of their heart, regardless of any hypocrisy, regardless of whether or not they mean it, such a person is now a visible saint, a Christian. God has made a statement concerning this person, and the one baptized has an obligation to say amen to God’s statement through how he lives his life."
It was Douglas Wilson, pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, ID, advocate of classical education, writer of numerous books on families and Christian living, and quasi-leader of the Federal Vision/Auburn Ave. theology movement. The quote came from a Tabletalk magazine article published by Ligonier Ministries.
10 comments:
Chris, I'm interested in your take on the quote.
I too will be interested in your take--taken in itself, it seems a little troubling at first glance.
Come on now guys. You are the ones who are supposed to comment, not me!
Brings to mind the parable of the sower. Time and friut (if any) will reveal whether the baptised person has indeed said "amen."
-Jenn
Chris, I already commented last week. I need resolution man! Did you put it there to generate discussion, or because you think he's a swell guy? Don't leave me hangin'.
Yes, I think Mr. Wilson is a swell guy.
Yes, I put it in there to generate discussion.
I wrote out a comment, but then deleted it because I didn't like it (and because it sounded, to be frank, ignorant!). The statement from Wilson seems to go along with Presbyterian thought on baptism, covenant membership, etc. (I totally concur with the last statement and Jennifer's comment)
Although, it is intriguing to think about the moment at which someone becomes a Christian (in other words, is there a moment we can point to?), and what exactly that means.
The "visible saint" term is interesting as well.
Dan,
I would also like to add that the FV (Federal Vision) folks, including Doug Wilson would define "Christian" in a slightly different way than even most Presbyterians. In the broadest use of the term, they would say Judas Iscariot was a "Christian" because he (at least for a while), was a follower of Christ. Their focus is much more on the objective (covenant community), than the subjective(individualistic) experience of salvation.
Interesting. The second statement was the one that I zeroed in on at first, because I think you can read it in different ways.
I would think that there would need to be a balance between the objective and subjective, since the Bible indicates on one hand that we will be held to account for the things we do here on earth and yet subjectively and internally we must genuinely believe in Christ and hold to Him as our savior (or He will say He never knew us).
Thankfully, those whom He calls, he guarantees their justification, sanctification and glorification!
Here's a question: can focusing too much on the objective side (covenant community) lead to a viewpoint that baptism is regenerative/able to save? (this would seem to me how Catholics/Greek Orthodox view baptism)
Dan, that was my first thought. If "Christian" is to be defined as born again, the statement seemed very Roman Catholic (i.e. baptism=regeneration). Understood in a different sense (as in community), this statement makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification Chris.
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